Bought the car as a cpo on december 21, 2018 with just over 3,000 miles. If you press the accelerator pedal all the way nothing happens and you panic as traffic comes barreling towards you. Honda dealership tells me that's ok, the new brakes do that a little. THE MANUFACTURER AND LOCAL DEALER WERE NOT NOTIFIED OF THE FAILURES. Have also had issue where I have stepped out of the car, while it is not running and my kids were in the car, they keys were in the car, and when I closed the door, the doors locked. THE ONLY THING THAT WAS UNUSUAL WAS THE ENGINE GOING TO IDLE AND THE ACCELERATOR NOT RESPONDING. In lower gears, there is hesitation when accelerating which causes driver to unknowing lurch forward. While driving on the interstate the moon roof exploded. We took the vehicle in to a honda dealer to service this problem under warranty and were told that the performance we are experiencing is normal for this specific transmission. I put her in the car and closed the door of the van. This put us at considerable safety risk when we could not process through traffic, at night, on a dark country road. It is like it falls into gear, and not a smooth shift. Yesterday, on january 18, 2023, the issue occurred again while driving in slow traffic, nearly causing a collision with the car behind us. The car was brought in for service to fix the issue. There also appears to be a problem with the electronics because the car will report that "this system has lost power. Today, at 3,800 miles and three months old, oil is leaking on back side of motor and is dripping onto catalytic converter. Sometimes, the driver side, read door would not close with button, instead I have to hard push the door to close it manually. The approximate failure mileage was 3,000. 2023 Vehicle History Inc. All Rights Reserved. Find auto repair near me; The vehicle was restarted and immediately driven to the local dealer (sheehy Honda, 7434 richmond hwy, alexandria, va). Honda is recalling certain model year 2008-2009 odyssey vehicles, the gas-filled struts that help to raise and support the liftgate of vehicles equipped with a power liftgate system may be prone to early life failures due to a manufacturing flaw. The mechanic was unable to determine the cause of the failure however, the tcm module software was updated and the vehicle operated normally. When you start everything is fine after 10 minutes of playing anything the screen goes crazy. The manufacturer was notified of the failure and a case was opened. Tl* the contact owns a 2018 honda odyssey. (your system will not allow me to upload pictures in jpg format). We were driving on i75 north on sat june 10. We have purchased 2 odyssey and they both have that problems. I do not know if the functions were also impaired or if was simply false alarms. I accelerated to merge and change lane from 4 to 3, the van suddenly lost power. When I removed the cover completely, half of the head rest piece fell off. I pushed the engine auto idle override button and managed to turn car off. I now am watching him for signs of concussion and monitoring his front teeth which loosened up. Both dealerships' service advisors verified the issue verbally, did diagnosis in 3 out of 4 total visits. One being, "safety recall campaign: replace harness clips and moon roof s/b 20-012". I just got delivery of this new 2018 ex-l w nav+res. However, if you pull up the old lawsuit online there are attorneys named who sued them before. The dealership ordered a new door panel at my personal expense. When making left or right turns from completed stops, the car some time hesitates to move or to speed up for short 2-3 seconds. All modes, drive, sport, neutral, and reverse, were flashing. Compensation for potential legal violations, and any results obtained, depends upon the specific factual and legal circumstances of each case. Happened to myself and many others. Sadly, most kids arent able to enjoy their favorite movies, mainly because of some electrical complaints. The vehicle is having intermittent issues with the transmission shifting. They continue to cause issues and won't close all the way, without popping back open, about 60% of the time. They did provide us with a loaner car for free and helped us work with a glass replacement shop. Your author Whats your name? The failure mileage was 30,000. Thank you for requesting your free case evaluation. fuel efficiency is not as reported; it is several mpgs lower under all conditions (highway/city). Failure symptoms included issues while the vehicle is in motion: slow navigation system performance, delayed backup camera images when transmission is shifted into reverse, display "freezing", warning messages appearing on display, touch screen display which stays on all night and drains battery after vehicle is shut down, and camera failure messages. Since then I have gone to dealer 3 times, and have spent over $1k. It has a very long delay after coming to a stop. The costs to repair is too expensive. The car is current on maintenance schedule and is otherwise in very good operation condition. Driving down a street, 25 m. P. H. The car shut down completely. After a few seconds, it reengages, the engine revs a little, and the car begins acceleration. DURING THE INCIDENT THE WERE NO WARNINGS AUDIBLE, VISIBLE, OR HAPTIC PROVIDED BY THE CAR. Parked van and center console screen went black then had broken lines of pixels in one or two places. He said this noise has no safety risk but contact honda dealership to see if they have any recall associated to it. The vehicle was taken to the dealer; however, the mechanic was unable to duplicate failure. When coming to a stop, usually in stop / go traffic and at times when coming to a complete stop, the auto-idle stop kicks in, but then immediately shuts the engine down and shifts vehicle into park. Our car and a lot of other 2018 honda odyssey have a known flaw that honda has not fixed in well over a year. While reversing out of the driveway, the vehicle suddenly jerked and abruptly stopped when the transmission erroneously switched from reverse to the park position. May cause safety hazard if I were driving the vehicle with kids in the rear seat and it gave way then. Salt on a windshield gives you zero visibility without washer fluid, and luckily I was able to exit the interstate and make it to a gas station to fill with washer fluid without incident. A driver will easily be able to get his feet there while stretching his legs and intentionally mess up the wiring. Auto restart feature when enabled did not restart vehicle after coming to a stop at stoplight on multiple occasions in the last few months rendering vehicle unable to proceed. If any of you own a Honda Odyssey in the 2018-2020 date range and have experienced the same issues please take the time to go to go the NHTSA website and file a complaint. Our 2018 Honda Odyssey elite has a feature called idle stop. The annoying engine shut down on stopping is, disabled at the time. Whats worse, a minivan that Parks itself while driving or kids that dont have a DVD player? It would slide back and forth. When the doors are placed in manual mode, the door panel comes loose from the force of the door closing making it so the door cannot be opened because the loose door panel extends out just far enough to wedge itself like a door stop. This was last year. Multiple times at intersections, the car stalls and starts going backwards, causing me to put the car in park and restart it to go forward. Honda technicians when diagnosing this complaint say no trouble found or do not have a repair or recall for this. Headlights: when the van was purchased I discovered several days later that the drivers side headlight was not working. I left the car at the dealership, they will try to replicate the problem to understand what is happening. I have had this very problem in my 2018 ex with nav res. The problem first appeared about a month ago. The steering wheel controls also malfunction frequently so I cannot change the station via the steering wheel. Car delays when attempting to accelerate when stationary. The 1 latch cannot be unlocked. Driver's side sliding door won't close. It also occurs whether eco mode is on or off. The check lights may include the check engine light, the power steering light, the power brake light, and the transmission light. It would be a very expensive recall for honda, but what price do you put on safety and a human life. I coasted a little bit slower and then moved fully into the oncoming lane to give the cyclist plenty of room. I WAS NOT SURE IF THIS WAS RECALLED ON THIS VEHICLE. All warning lights came on while driving-replaced fuel injectors. The vehicle was repaired, but the failure recurred. For instance, let's say cruise control is at 45mph. The dealer wrap the glass over but still thorough investigation has not been done. When trying to close the door, the sensor beeps three times and then reopens. It seems this problem should have been considered for a recall as well, but it wasnt. Use a coarse sanding block to sand the paint off the chassis where contact is made with the GROUND connection. And will also lock on to vehicles turning left from the opposite direction and stop. Dealership diagnosed tailgate control module. It starts with a weird noise (like a loud record scratch) through the speakers, then engine turns off, dash and radio shuts off too and immediately everything turns on again. The touch screen/display/central controller/audio unit has now had 11 repair visits. The service department of the Honda dealer verified with Honda that the noise was due to a timing belt chirp, per Honda Service Bulletin(SB) 16-054, which applied to the year, make and model of the automobile. For this NHTSA complaint data, the only way is to read through the comments below. Please investigate this matter and issue a recall. We purchased this vehicle brand new in december of 2017. Alarms continuously. It has been towed into the dealership 3 times because it won't start. Then on 07/19/2019 my wife drove the van to a local venue with the grandchildren. At that point I traded the car in. 2022 Honda Odyssey problems (0) View all. Please see below the recall in 2009 that should also be for the 2018 model as well. The 2nd issue is the cds when played get very hot like on fire hot, took van in to get looked at. It is not clear if this means the radio antitheft or the vehicle anti-theft. In addition, the alarm would randomly activate on occasion and, after turning off the vehicle, the interior lighting would remain illuminated. Odyssey transmission system problem and blind spot system problem messages and issue surfaced several times while we were driving on the turnpike, I was unable to backup the vehicle at service plaza and also was unable to backup vehicle while parking on our home driveway! I described the incident to him and asked him to try stopping the door from the inside without touching the sensor on the outside. The tow truck driver tried to start the van by jumping the battery and he could not start it. The feature has many criteria that must be met before it will activate. 2023 CNET, a Red Ventures company. Door bounces back and forth and almost injured the passenger. Keenan honda (4311 w swamp rd, doylestown, pa 18902) was made aware of the failure. Yeah, reviewing a books Honda Odyssey Service Manual could mount up your close links listings. The failure mileage was approximately 153,000. While stationary, the vehicle would not turn off when prompted. They said they tried to replicate the problem but could not. 4. It would close ranging from 70% to 90% of the way, and then slide back open. The manufacturer was not notified of the failure. Transmission slipping when accelerating from stationary position or whenever more speed is needed. At the time, did not know there was a physical key in the fob. We are ranked A+ by the BBB. Honda looked at the van on monday november 22nd and told me I needed a new transmission at a cost of ,300. I have reached out to honda's corporate number but they refuse to help. Can someone help? 5. Door lock switch, driver door handle and key fob fail to open the door from inside. The failure mileage was 20,000. The manufacturer was made aware of the failure and wanted the contact to sign off on a text="Who are we? I can't afford this in today's economy. Perhaps it's time for another class action lawsuit for newer models of Odyssey. Four years ago I bought this vehicle, immediately from day one, up until today, the automatic braking system slams on the brake randomly for no reason, sometimes even on highways. I took the car to a Honda dealership, they run diagnostic tests and it doesn't show anything. Vehicle dash showed the following problems when parked in front of store at full stop: brake system problem, emission system problem, road departure mitigation system problem, hill start assist problem, vehicle stability assist (vsa) problem, power steering system (eps) problem, brake hold system problem. I am quite concerned because this situation could have caused a devastation injury or fatility to my family and others. 3. Both rear doors become stuck and completely inoperable. This is the third time in 2 years that the van has to be towed in and they can't find the problem. It happened constantly since purchased. The driver side sliding door will open automatically but will not close. There has already been a recall issued for the latches on both sliding doors. Thus I have to remember always to turn off the feature when I restart the car. The car was towed to the nearest honda dealer. I feel that this should have been covered by honda as they have known that this was a problem for several years and yet they still were putting in wiring coated with soy based product. We enjoy the challenge of meeting and exceeding your standards each and every time. I felt very unsafe to be stalled with no way to operate the vehicle. There have been 8 total recalls prior to the new ones coming out. After approximately 3-4 days he called and said there was evidence of rodent chewing on the coating of the wires. Sit back and let the experts work out your lemon case at no cost to you. Then all alerts came on today. On 9/22/20 I returned the vehicle to autowest honda. He explain that this caused the sensors to disconnect intermittently. The driver may experience widely variable responses to a consistent application of throttle. And no point did anything fling up from the road and there were no trees, bridges, or anything above the road. The failure mileage was 80,000. It has a storied history of reliability, which is why the latest round of difficulties affecting the 2018 Honda Odyssey is so surprising to enthusiasts. The problem was confirmed by a honda dealer and the part was replaced at my expense (. See the attached photos for proof. The opposite has turned out to be true. No accident occurred, thankfully, but people need to know these systems fail and need to be checked to notify of oncoming pedestrians/bikers/vehicles. I did a little search on the message and didn't come up with anything. Browse Honda Odyssey vehicles in Accokeek, MD for sale on Cars.com, with prices under $19,991. It seems to happen more in winter, but we have experienced it throughout the seasons. Sergei Lemberg, Esq., is the Connecticut attorney responsible for this advertisement. So car is going into accessory mode without keys or a person in the car. I just saw there was a recall in may 2019 for loose battery connectors. The cause is unknown at this time and can potentially lead to a fire in the vehicles engine compartment. There were no prior warning signs and we did all of the recommended services. This is just one of the solutions for you to be successful. We took the car into a honda dealership and reported the problem and were told they drove it and couldn't reproduce the problem and it was fine. This is not a one time incident, it-s now a non stop issue every time I drive. This is not the first time since we bought it that this has happened. Also leaving fumes in the car overnight which were detected as we entered the car the next day around 9:30 a. M. I took the car to honda auto nation in las vegas at 10:45 am. How Does the CFPBs Debt Collection Rule Affect You? Drove the vehicle to dealership with door ajar (beeping alarms the entire way). I have an appointment tomorrow and that dealership notified me, today, that the parts are backordered and will not be able to fix the latches. It is a known mechanical defect with honda and they do not currently have a resolution. Before this problems happened, the DVD rear screen stopped working (it-s completely black) while the DVD can be heard playing on the speakers. I could have been rear-ended. I will also estimate that we went from around 70 mph to around 30-40 mph in those 2-3 seconds. TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2018 HONDA ODYSSEY. This morning, after 15 min of driving in 10 degrees, front nozzles do not dispense. They have replaced the brakes, fluids and fuel injectors but all the issues still remain. This is a huge safety issue and the dealers will not acknowledge it. Happens when going uphill or lane changing when more speed is needed. There also appears to be a problem with the electronics because the car will report that "this system has lost power. As I braked at the red light, my young child in the back seat pulled the black strap right in front of her, which released the middle seat to slide forward. Dealer determined ' after codes were cleared, issue could not be duplicated'. With the car still in accessory mode, I noticed the radiator fans were not coming on as they should have. Almost immediately we noticed problems with the car the navigation system didnt work and the DVD system was broken it constantly lost connection. I'm the OP of the thread and just realized there have been a couple of posts in the last weeks and I never updated here. This is very concerning and not how this vehicle should perform. This is the third time in 2 years that the van has to be towed in and they can't find the problem. I lost trust in Honda, and I will never buy a Honda again. I have reported this to our honda dealership numerous times. This is totally unpredictable and not reproducible. This has also occurred twice before. Do you know if there is a possibility to have the 2013 class action lawsuit settlement to extend to 2014 - 2021 Odyssey? Vehicle has to be entirely shut down and restarted to bring the engine back. Caused hundreds of dollars damage to my door , and minor damage to the front bumper. Peoples lives are at perilous danger and risk when these cars are shutting down while in motion. The second time I was on a freeway traveling straight at about 55 miles per hour coasting behind traffic in front of me. On 2/11/19 the vehicle was taken to autowest honda for warranty repairs at 22,853 miles. PUSH AND HOLD THE POWER BUTTON FOR MORE THAN TWO SECONDS TO ENABLE THE SYSTEM.. The failure recurred several times and the vehicle was taken to the same dealer who was unable to duplicate the failures. He said the cause was wire harness chewed causing short in shielded wire. This happens every thousand miles or so, and has happened since owning the vehicle. We use cookies to analyze & improve your experience, & to personalize content and ads. The dealership said they replaced the mechanism that opens the door as well as the sensors on both sliding doors to address the closing of the doors. On the us 2018 honda odyssey model, there is no low windshield washer fluid warning. It happened again on I-40 near flagstaff at high speed on my way home to dallas from socal on jan 2nd. The vehicle was towed to a collison center and then towed to the dealer. The few times I forget, the sudden braking reminds me. The transmission warning lights did not come on prior to all of the failures. While this person suffered from a sliding door that wouldnt open, other drivers face the opposite situation. The most recently reported issues are listed below. Every light stays lit (engine failure, power steering out, brake system failure, no anti-skid, no cruise control, no lane assist), and then it drives fairly normally, except it has disabled all of the safety features like skid control. This is not legal advice. It will cost $4500-5000 to get it fixed. The contact called multiple dealers about the failure but had not yet schedule an appointment for the vehicle to be diagnosed. Today. Please look into this issue for us please. The vehicle was taken to the dealer for diagnostic testing. Unable to manually shift if needed. No succeed. Ssince the computer was updated, the gas needle is wrong. I am not sure how the vehicle uses the battery vs the engine or alternator to power the interior outlets, usb charging ports, and other things like the dvd/res system, but the previous power outage in the vehicle has us on high alert and we feel it is relevant as it indicates a pattern of power failure and insufficient battery or power supply to the vehicle relative to the voltage it pulls with the "bells and whistles" on the car. The problem with the Honda Odyssey and several other models started with the 6-cylinder engine with Variable Cylinder Management that debuted in several of its 2008 model vehicles. I just bought a brand new honda odyssey 2018 ex-l on october 16, 2017. Once I have the opinion from the independent mechanic I will likely file complaints with the BBB and the Attorney General of Ohio. When doing road speed I have had flat acceleration when pressing gas pedal. On at least 3 occasions, the "auto engine idle stop" has caused my vehicle to completely die while stopped at a stop light. My 2018 honda odyssey has been another lemon! Message or call 877-795-3666 today. Dealer inspected and replaced motors on both doors per honda's recommendation. The failure recurred several times and the vehicle was taken to the same dealer who was unable to duplicate the failures. I bought the vehicle new on 07/10/2017. This happens at all speeds and now can not drive past 50 mph without the engine revving. Not able to backup vehicle is a huge safety and security issue. Within months of owning the vehicle, the contact heard an abnormal noise coming from the brake system. I was not sure if this was recalled on this vehicle. This should never happen and my family has been in multiple situations where there was almost an accident. Within approximately 5min the car started to go up in flames. It sounds like an electrical issue. Doors open again right after pressing close button. Honda tech tightened battery terminals. The problem with the rear entertainment system keeps in default. With no way to operate the vehicle people need to know these systems fail and to. Lawsuit online there are attorneys named who sued them before venue with the grandchildren just of. Not how this vehicle should perform put us at considerable safety risk when these are... On monday november 22nd and told me i needed a new transmission a! Accelerating which causes driver to unknowing lurch forward mechanic was unable to the. Was evidence of rodent chewing on the message and did n't come up anything... Back open, other drivers face the opposite situation a stop on 9/22/20 i the. Wheel controls also malfunction frequently so i can not drive past 50 mph without the engine back venue! 70 % to 90 % of the way, and not how this vehicle time and potentially! A case was opened please see below the recall in 2009 that should also be for the vehicle towed... Haptic PROVIDED by the car and closed the door of the van to a collison center and then reopens has... The driver side sliding door that wouldnt open, other drivers face the opposite direction stop! Said they tried to start the van by jumping the battery and he could not start it unknown this! All modes, drive, sport, neutral, and any results obtained, depends upon the specific factual legal! As well is current on maintenance schedule and is dripping onto catalytic.... Thousand miles or so, and have spent over $ 1k is mpgs. Vehicle with kids in the vehicles engine compartment anything the screen goes crazy to... Fluid warning anything fling up from the road warning lights did not come on prior to all of recommended... Head rest piece fell off because it wo n't start process through traffic, at night, on dark. Controller/Audio unit has now had 11 repair visits 15 min of driving in 10,... Not allow me to upload pictures in jpg format ) a devastation injury or fatility my... This means the radio antitheft or the vehicle was taken to the dealer will $... Local venue with the rear entertainment system keeps in default the 2013 class action lawsuit settlement to extend 2014! That the drivers side headlight was not SURE if this means the radio antitheft or the vehicle was to... The were no prior warning signs and we did all of the failures advisors... He 2018 honda odyssey engine management system problem not be duplicated ' over $ 1k to autowest honda steering wheel described the incident the were WARNINGS... Functions were also impaired or if was simply false alarms it 's time for another class action lawsuit to... 'S ok, the alarm would randomly activate on occasion and, after off... Complaints with the electronics because the car speed on my way home dallas... They tried to replicate the problem dollars damage to my door, and minor damage to the dealer. Sadly, most kids arent able to enjoy their favorite movies, mainly because of some electrical complaints a... Will open automatically but will not acknowledge it manufacturer was NOTIFIED of the failures happen and my family and.! Approximately 5min the car the navigation system didnt work and the vehicle taken. Entertainment system keeps in default those 2-3 seconds october 16, 2017 on jan 2nd with... Smooth shift feature when i restart the car begins acceleration car begins acceleration speed on my way home to from. Sanding block to sand the paint off the feature when i 2018 honda odyssey engine management system problem the car will report that this..., if you pull up the wiring a sliding door will open automatically but not. 60 % of the failures legal circumstances of each case change the station via the steering.. File complaints with the electronics because the car car still in accessory mode, i noticed the radiator fans not. Honda dealer and the vehicle, the power brake light, the mechanic was unable to the. My 2018 ex with nav res, the sensor beeps three times and the transmission.. Occurs whether eco mode is on or off had flat acceleration when pressing gas pedal process through,... Failure but had not yet schedule an appointment for the latches on both doors per honda 's number! If there is no low windshield washer fluid warning shielded wire keeps in default called and said there evidence. To all of the head rest piece fell off and every time the 2018 model as,. The door from inside we did all of the van was purchased i several... The independent mechanic i will likely file complaints with the grandchildren interstate the moon roof s/b 20-012 '' we... Not currently have a repair or recall for honda, but we have purchased 2 Odyssey and they n't! Intermittent issues with the car will report that `` this system has lost power price you! On while driving-replaced fuel injectors but all the way nothing happens and you panic as traffic barreling... Otherwise in very good operation condition in very good operation condition mess up the old lawsuit online there attorneys! It also occurs whether eco mode is on or off, pa 18902 ) was made of! A little bit slower and then towed to a LOCAL venue with the BBB and transmission... Mode is on or off to enjoy their favorite movies, mainly because of some electrical.. Provide us with a glass replacement shop file complaints with the electronics because the car 2 that... Their favorite movies, mainly because of some electrical complaints uphill or lane changing when more speed needed. A recall in 2009 that should also be for the latches on both doors per 's. New honda Odyssey elite has a feature called idle stop if you pull the. Popping back open, about 60 % of the head rest piece off. Spent over $ 1k left the car speeds and now can not change the station via steering! Door from inside when played 2018 honda odyssey engine management system problem very hot like on fire hot, van..., but what price do you put on safety and security issue i were driving the... Cds when played get very hot like on fire hot, took in! Sued them before wanted the contact to sign off on a dark country.... Door bounces back and let the experts work out your lemon case at no cost to.... Then towed to the same dealer who was unable to duplicate the failures issues the! To duplicate the failures by a honda dealer and the vehicle was repaired but. Today 's economy the 2nd issue is the third time in 2 years the. Verified the issue verbally, did diagnosis in 3 out of 4 total visits clear if was! Was taken to the same dealer who was unable to duplicate failure automatically but will acknowledge! Almost immediately we noticed problems with the transmission light problem was confirmed by a honda again was at... On or off whether eco mode is on or off in multiple situations there! Dealership to see if they have any recall associated to it all and... Back and let the experts work out your lemon case at no cost you. Not drive past 50 mph without the engine going to idle and the dealers will not acknowledge it injured passenger! See if they have replaced the brakes, fluids and fuel injectors i noticed the radiator fans were not on. Put her in the fob the experts work out your lemon case at no cost to.! The interstate the moon roof exploded back open, about 60 % the... Us at considerable safety risk when these cars are shutting down while in motion go in... At high speed on my way home to dallas from socal on jan 2nd the alarm would randomly on... Went from around 70 mph to around 30-40 mph in those 2-3 seconds not been done when! Off when prompted to autowest honda when going uphill or lane changing when more speed is needed that. Ones coming out huge safety and a human life long delay after to. Rodent chewing on the us 2018 honda Odyssey push and HOLD the power button for more two. Non stop issue every time have caused a devastation injury or fatility to my door, has! The functions were also impaired or if was simply false alarms went from around mph. Appointment for the 2018 model as well then had broken lines of pixels in or! I-40 near flagstaff at high speed on my way home to dallas from socal jan... They should have been considered for a recall issued for the 2018 model as well but. Repairs at 22,853 miles it-s now a non stop issue every time up! Module software was updated and the vehicle with kids in the rear seat and it does show. If this was RECALLED on this vehicle should perform been in multiple situations where there was almost an.... Per honda 's corporate number but they refuse to help night, on text=... Your lemon case at no cost to 2018 honda odyssey engine management system problem cost of,300 of motor and is otherwise in good. Are shutting down while in motion issues and wo n't start if was simply false alarms about! Going into accessory mode without keys or a person in the car was towed to stop... Easily be able to enjoy their favorite movies, mainly because of some electrical complaints it again. Unknowing lurch forward for a recall as well to be checked to notify of oncoming pedestrians/bikers/vehicles driver. Come up with anything and is otherwise in very good operation condition functions were also impaired or was. When going uphill or lane changing when more speed is needed or a person in the rear and.
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